Episode 6
I Slept 8 Hours—Why Am I Still Tired?

Intro：

In our last episode, we talked with Lara and Penelope about circadian rhythms and why students may naturally feel more awake at certain times of the day.

But what if you get the recommended eight hours of sleep and still feel exhausted?

In this episode of Brain Matters we continue our conversation and talk about sleep needs, naps, caffeine, and what actually helps us feel more rested. 

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Vivian: Okay, so many students also say that I got eight hours of sleep,But I still feel exhausted. What are the biggest reasons someone can technically sleep enough, but still feel like not feel mentally restored.

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Penelope: So that's a good question.There are a few things to consider when you're talking about that, like eight hours of sleep, that is very widely known widely used number. So eight hours is sort of a blanket number, and in reality this is very different for people of all different ages. It should not be used as a blanket term, because a lot of research shows that younger adults and younger people actually need around nine to ten hours, and older adults usually feel fully rested after only about six to seven eight, and the best thing to do is really to listen to your body because, like we've been saying everybody is different and here really is no such thing as too much sleep, which is a big misconception because your body wouldn't allow you to sleep more than what it needs. So, listening to your body, it's important to know that napping can also be beneficial for some people if you are not getting enough sleep at overnight, because that can help you catch up on some of that sleep that maybe you're missing out on overnight.     

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Vivian: Yeah I was just thinking like wow because you said that oversleeping isn't a thing and I was really shocked by that, because for me, especially during the weekend I tend to oversleep or just sleep more to catch up on the sleep that I missed on during the week, but after I do that, I often feel unproductive or croggy for the rest of the day, so that I assume I overslept, but it is really interesting hear how that's like a misconception.

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Penelope: It's a big misconception. It's actually something that our boss, Dr Clemen, has published a few papers on, or maybe just one paper. But she did a study where they and Lara gonna know more about this study. Did they try to get people to sleep too much, or they made people sleep?

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Lara: So they put them in something called a constant routine where they put everyone in the same condition. So it's like they were eating at the same time in this lab setting, they were going to bed waking up at the same time. So they got them all at a baseline. And then what they started to do was sleep deprive them and then see how much that they actually needed in sleep after that sleep deprivation episode. And the people that you know were sleep deprived, when given the opportunity in like a loud setting to like okay sleep as much as you would need when you're feeling like sleepy. You know, and they'd come in with these like measures saying I would only need like 6 hours of sleep, but I don't need like, you know I'd feel rested with six, and then these people are sleeping like eleven hours like they would sleep so so long, and to make up for that lack of sleep. So what we say we need can be like really different from what our body actually tells us that we need, so yeah I think that's the study you're referencing to knowledge where you know they sought like more when they were sleep deprived and like when given the opportunity like people are just, they're going to sleep more most likely so.

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Vivian: So then like, why do we feel like groggy after and is there a way we can combat that?

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Lara: So the grogginess is typically that like melatonin is still like really, it's also called a sleep inertia is something that like is the grogginess that like stays with you kind of after some sleep. I always like I personally feel that after you know you wake up, wait in the morning and you're feeling unproductive and groggy. It is still valid to like use what we said before about getting that extra light and also like working out getting your body moving fitness and stuff like that is best you can like obviously sometimes you just like a couch potato and you just want to stay in bed and that's what you mean, especially for students too, like there are days you just need that and that is okay you have to allow yourself to have these because during the week, most people have a really like regimented schedule where they're going, gogogo, all through you know practices and studying and all this stuff. So if the weekend is your time that you need to sleep in a little bit and rest like it's really important that you do so, and to combat the like grogginess like really just like starting to get some more light and like physical activity is really helpful, having like a kind of a morning routine and stuff to do I think it's really important. Penelope Do you have any other like tips for kind of like knocking that grogginess down?

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Penelope: I mean, Yeah definitely. I mean, any caffeine can always be helpful. I always like to mention that be cognitive of what time you're having drinking caffeine. I know this I was a big coffee drinker in high school and college and post college. Just know that sort of the half life of caffeine in the average person's body is about five to six hours and so drinking it after about 2pm can be depending on your bedtime, pretty detrimental in falling asleepI think I think you can be a great way to wake yourself up in the morning, but definitely being cognitive of what time of day you're drinking it and sort of trying to stop before about 2-3pm, or else you'll be feeling the effects well into the night, which is can be difficult.Yeah, I think just like trying to get outside as early as possible because artificial light the hatchel arm it's all great, but if you're waking up late especially late in the day really the best thing is sunlight and so if the sun's up and shining, trying to get outside and just sort of even if just for five minutes, it really helps wake your body up.

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Vivian: Yeah, I saw this thing that would like said that humans are like can be really connected to trees, so I thought that was interesting in how it's like synergy or something, but yeah.

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Penelope: Yeah, nature just plays such an amazing role in life in the human body definitely.

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Vivian: Yeah, what you guys said are like sleep inertia is also super interesting because I don't know if you guys are familiar with AP classes, but for my like AP language classes here, which is basically English, one of the essays was like a synthesis about the significance or value of napping, and they talked about like sleep inertia, sleep pods and like napping.

Lara: We've been talking about like sleep pods and like the ones that are in office spaces now and like colleges like that. Yeah, those are I think those are really cool if they're done the right way and the right set up at like different colleges. Sometimes it can be like kind of weird if you're in the middle of it, a public space to go into this little pod, but if it's like private enough and you know it's a nice spot for students that I felt like in college that there were times I just needed to go back to my dorm and lay down for twenty minutes and then after that I felt ready for the rest of the day, I was ready to go until whatever time I was going to go to bed, but that extra like just a few minutes of napping can sometimes really help you and people should kind of see that, you know someone who might reach for it like a coffee like Penelope was saying in the afternoon to like as a pick me up. If you have the capabilities to maybe go lay down for like twenty to thirty minutes and see if that's something that works for you. It can really benefit, you know your whole body's system for the rest of the day, so it can it can kind of be a good substitute and the nap isn't going to like really keep you awake like later in the evening unless you're napping it like, eight pm or something really close to bedtime, but you know like an afternoon nap or something isn't going to harm you, and it's it could be a good substitution for reaching for like something like a stimulus to kind of help you stay awake.

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Penelope: I’m gonna add one more point to say that if you think trying to keep naps to was it forty five minutes Lara?

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Lara: Yeah, like under forty five minutes.

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Penelope: under forty five minutes is sort of after that and when you're getting greater than an hour, you can start to feel that grogginess again. So if you're looking for more of like regenerative nap trying to keep it sort of under forty five minutes, you just sort of wake your body up.

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Vivian: I remember hearing or reading somewhere that twenty six minutes is the golden time frame for a nap, and I was wondering if you guys have any thoughts on that or feels right? Because twenty six minutes seems to be a really arbitrary time frame.

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Lara: I don't know the research article that says twenty six, but I think it also can kind of vary for like the person and also like, you know, if whatever amount of time you can fit in for a nap is really great too. Everyone has different word schedules and like needs of. If you have something that you have to get two and thirty minutes, or you know you just have thirty minutes to lay down at home like take the thirty minutes, but like Penelope said that forty five minutes is like, twenty six is fine to like any kind of time, but I would say anywhere from like fifteen to forty five minutes is like ideal if you're falling asleep under fifteen minutes, that's a little concerning because you might have like some daytime sleeping is going on, so something to like be aware of if you can fall asleep like within a few minutes it's you're over tired. So that's something to think about, but after that forty five minutes the risk there is that you're going to start falling into those sleep cycles that kind of happen at night that we talked about, where you're going through light sleep and deep sleep and and like rem and all that. And once you're going into those cycles, that's when your body gets really confused. So when people like fall asleep for a nap like two hours during the day, and they wake up confused what time it is. That's because you've fallen into like sleep cycles and you might be in a really deep deep sleep, and then alarmed, but you know was waking you up to like go to whatever you have to go to.Wakes you up and you're like I can't get up. I'm so tired and it's five o'clock and I slept way too long. So, making sure you don't follow until like sleep cycles is really important.

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Vivian: Cool. Yeah, I didn't know like instantly falling asleep was a bad thing, because like that's something I wish I had, because some people like to knock out and I was just like I want that.

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Lara: I know they're like a sweet spot is like the fifteen minute like, you know, you should take around like fifteen minutes to fall asleep, but I think anything like under that like regularly if that's how long you're taking to fall asleep is like two minutes every single night, and that's when you fall asleep, you're probably a little like overtired and could benefit from maybe like a nap during the day or something like that. You're probably overtired I would say.

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Penelope: Yeah, I think it depends, but there are definitely some people that can fall asleep quicker. I am definitely one of them, but if you are really falling asleep in like a record time and every day you can kind of fall asleep shouldn't feel like you've been hit by a truck, it's more like you drift into sleep versus knocking out the minute that your head hits a pillow.

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Vivian: Okay.It feels I guess it feels reassuring to hear that cause I wish I could do that, but yeah, okay. So the final question to like wrap everything up. If you could change one thing about how students think about sleep, what would it be?

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Lara: So I think this is really important, because students take on so much and they are always doing extra curriculars to you're like athletes and musicians, you're like performing arts all those different things. And I think sleep tends to fall on the back burner when you have all those responsibilities whether it's high school, college or, you know, in professional careers, me and Penelope can relate to that working. And then when you get home from work, sometimes you just want to like chill on the couch and watch TV and you don't feel motivated to you know work out and do all these other things and you're just you know feeling kind of sluggish, but sleep is like a really important thing to work into like a normal routine for students for anyone in their lives. And it keeps us kind of like motivated to or keeps it like our energy levels at like a good balance and so sleep is something that we shouldn't ignore. Nutrients, just like nutrients and working out are all important things that you know your doctor may talk to you about, sleep is one that sometimes falls on that back burner and I think kind of relate to like a personal story about sleep, but I was a collegiate rower and in college, and when I started paying attention to my sleep, I started dropping like seconds on my like my times for performing for rowing, we use an herd machine is what it's called, so it's a rowing machine and I was like dropping seconds when I started to pay attention to my sleep because of this professor that penelope and I worked with in college, and it was really important to pay attention to that, and I think it's something that high school workers and college students could really benefit from that, you know, If you're seeing up late and I went to soccer practice after high school and I'm studying up really late and you know that's what I have to focus on. Sometimes being able to have a cut off time and say I've done all right, could do for today, I've studied as much as I can for this exam, it's time to go to bed and your body will thank you, your brain will thank you, you'll be able to remember more for you know cramming for those exams, sometimes you just have to kind of stop and cut yourself off with what you can do, and you'll actually remember more from you know your memory consolidation will be a little bit better, if you're able to get a good night's rest, it's really important. So I think just being able to pay attention to sleep and have sleep hygiene is really important. Having a good sleep routine and trying to go to bed wake up at similar times, making sure that you're not like doing your homework in your bed, you're not eating in your bed. All those things are really important. Leaving your bed for just sleep is really, really important. So Papelope do you have anything to add on that.

Penelope: Yeah, I was definitely going to throw in especially for students, the part about like there is such a misconception about pulling an all-nighter and studying. For hours and hours through the night is actually more detrimental to your habits and there have been so many studies that have shown that you performance decreases when people deprive themselves of sleep even if it is to study for hours, and your performance regardless of how many hours you've been studying over the night, will and would be improved if you go to bed at your normal time and your memory just believing your memory because memory consolidation only occurs not only but majority occurs oversleep. And so that's definitely important for students to understand, because it's.A big misconception in high school and college that studying all night will.Will not help you and then what were you saying at the very end? There is something I was going to say. Oh, keeping your bed firstly, only is something that is used in therapy actually as well for to help treat people who have insomnia. But I think it's a good practice for anyone, and it's just trying to keep your bed for sleep only, and not really like dooms scrolling it on your phone at night like trying not to do that in your bed or yeah, doing homework. Just like trying to keep your bed for only the night time can really help you fall asleep. Especially for someone who struggles with sleep.

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Outro：

So the next time you are choosing between another hour of studying or getting some sleep it may be helpful to remember that sleep can be a part of learning too. 

Thanks for listening and see you next time on Brain Matters.